Curse

Destrudo · Jan 07, 2012, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Reading through this thread, Jeydra and Ensign are pretty spot on as to what the update accomplished. Hopefully part two makes the normal skills viable enough in PvE so that we have options as effective as AP and the old Invoke. I'd like to be able to play an Ele seriously without feeling that I'm dragging my team down more by running something that isn't AP or ER.

... Though, I hope said second update doesn't destabilize PvP as much as the Derv update, just to name an (admittedly extreme) example, did.

Got to say though, for a person who doesn't play the Elementalist much due to the lack of competitive builds it's nice to see new options such as Elemental Attunement, Shockwave and Shatterstone to screw around with for whenever I don't feel like playing a physical.

Ensign · Jan 07, 2012, 01:50 AM // 01:50

I thought the Invoke Eles were very strong, and added a lot of value to doing speed runs - not just the up front burst damage they had, but the ability to support Fall Back comfortably.

They are definitely a loss on speed on the high end. I just don't think they're a huge deal because they really didn't provide any needed functions beyond being a hammer once your build had its bases covered. I don't think you have to rethink any strategies without those guys now; it's not like losing spirits or minions. It's just some speed.

What I mean is that beyond pure speed, there's robustness, there's stability, ease of play, etc. Air Eles were great because while they weren't terribly stable, they gave you a big burst of speed in areas where you could afford it. But I always thought of them as a trade-off, one that I liked, but am not going to get too upset over.

Wenspire · Jan 07, 2012, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Did a quick run through Frostmaw with my normal Ranger-group setup to test out how the new change in enemy HM-AR rating (and a bit of Water/Air ele change via enemy) was going to affect my non-armor ignoring damage. Pretty much the only skill in my group's bar that was affected were the 3 SoS spirits. My clear times pretty much remained the same, with the exception that level 4 (with the Madrigors) was quicker (about 3 min).

In short, everything almost feels the same in regards to the change in enemy-AR vs increased life.

EDIT: With the AR-decrease of enemies, wouldn't crits hit much harder now? If that is the case, wouldn't an A/R crit barrager be pretty viable?

DiogoSilva · Jan 07, 2012, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I've been using Shadow Passage's from factions to experiment new builds. The foes at the entrance there are the Ministry of Purity, which are harder than your average hardmode foe. The first group has a warrior boss, the second and third usually join into one giant mob. I usually get trashed at the last one at least once with a 7-hero (well, six plus my partner which is a ranger) pvx party before I kill them all.

I've attempted with three eles with doublecasting skills, and the AI really sucks at using them. I then opted for Unsteady Ground/ Unsteady Ground/ Savannah Heat trio, but my party still got trashed. Apparently, the loldamage that some people thought it would be overpowered hardly made a difference. I wasn't using a MM nor Panic Dom, though, only ST Rit, SOS healer Rit, and Necro healer. I decided to take two eles out for the MM and mesmer, and left one with an Earth build, while I myself opted for Savannah heat + EBSoH. Gotta say, this time it was me who trashed everything. The Heat spells are back to their NM levels, and the new Unsteady Ground RECHARGES FAST. I was seeing half the mob KDed over and over (the ele hero also had Churning Earth). Plus with Ward Against melee and Eruption, and I didn't miss my Ineptitude hero one bit. And that area has a good deal of melee.

Earth magic > Illusion Magic.

EDIT: I've also tried Mist Form there, and was disappointed. Part of the blame goes to the non-elites, though. But I've enjoyed the healing, when my skills weren't recharging...

Chthon · Jan 07, 2012, 04:43 AM // 04:43

1. I'm reserving overall judgment until I've had a lot more time to test stuff.

2. The biggest change is not the skill updates; it's the armor-for-life trade on the monsters.

First and foremost, does anyone have the slightest clue what the actual numbers on these changes were?

Second, I'd like to say that, despite my reservations about funny balance effects with skills that care about max hp or comparative hp, my tentative judgment is that this was a good update. It goes a long way towards bringing things back towards the Prophecies era feel: Elementalists are damage dealers; Skill descriptions are a (somewhat) accurate indicator of how much damage they do; Monsters stick around awhile before dying. Now if only something could be done about the power creep that makes every other monster an instajib threat...

Third, I'd like to point out something I should have seen coming* but didn't: MoP isn't much nerfed. It might even be stronger. The hexed target takes a longer time to die, which results in more triggers. This silver lining is generalizable to all sticky hexes that usually outlasted their target under the old hp/AL system.
(*I say I should have seen this coming because I did see it coming in the context of degen, but failed to realize that it was true for a broader class of skills.)

Fourth: All martial weapons except daggers just got a buff. It'll take time to get around to examining how big an effect it's having. The same goes for non-elementalist elemental damage skills.

3. I'm reserving judgment on the new elites. I think it's too early to completely write them off as potential top-tier damage dealers.

However, I think we're going to see more innovation when people get around to looking at the non-damage elites. Among other things, we've got safer/collaterally better version of BiP and a skill that let's you do a 14/14/14/14/12+1+X/12/3 attribute split. Hopefully someone will find an interesting application for at least one of these.

Gust worries me for PvP. To a lesser extent, so does MoI.

4. Despite all the updated elites, I've got a suspicion that the real winner may end up being Searing Flames.

In a similar vein, Icy Veins also now does respectable AoE on a quick recharge. (Sorry for the pun.)

5. About Invoke+Chain. It's a definite kick in the balls, but I'm not sure it's the kick in the balls with a flaming steel-toed boot studded with used hypodermic needles that some people seem to think it is. As I understand it, the point of Invoke+Chain was to run one or two Command skills while doing decent damage. I can't help but think that a lot of things are going to compare to the old Invoke+Chain damage-wise under the new hp/AL system. Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.

Da Kenster · Jan 07, 2012, 05:05 AM // 05:05

^A member posted some numbers in the thread here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...t10500604.html) regarding the supposed changes. I cannot personally confirm the veracity though.

Edit:
On Topic: I am enjoying experimenting with new ele builds with a focus on the new and improved elites. I think the second update will be interesting and look forward to seeing how I can fool around with my heroes some more.

Hine · Jan 07, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Hello

I tested it out in RA and tbh it's just a mess

Actually no matter the caster class I'm playing, I see no use to have a melee in my group anymore. Any melee get perma blind/weakned and can't spike anything while the monk waste his mana trying to get rid of condition that respawn every 2sec.

Kunder · Jan 07, 2012, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

First and foremost, does anyone have the slightest clue what the actual numbers on these changes were?

From what I can tell on a small random sample of high level enemies, no specific algorithm was used. Enemies just got armor reduced a lot. Humans all have standard lvl 20 armor and monstrous stuff has at most around +5-10 armor on top of that (not counting specific races that have +20 vs an element or -20 vs an element, the +5-10 is global for all types). This applies to both NM and HM, meaning armor affected damage is stronger now even in NM areas. In every case I have checked HM and NM are both the same (lower) values now, which is nice that you sells always hit the same in both modes.

The +health I'm not sure about, its obviously really hard to track without being the only one in the party. Things definitely die a lot faster for me though, even with builds that are 50/50 split on armor ignoring vs armor respecting damage.

Quote:

However, I think we're going to see more innovation when people get around to looking at the non-damage elites. Among other things, we've got safer/collaterally better version of BiP and a skill that let's you do a 14/14/14/14/12+1+X/12/3 attribute split. Hopefully someone will find an interesting application for at least one of these.

Problem, at least for PvE, is that Eles still have generally weak non-elites. The only skills I would consider "good" non-elites are Liquid Flame, Rodgort's Invocation, and Chain Lightning. Master of Magic looks so delicious but just isn't there until non-elites get some changes.

Quote:

4. Despite all the updated elites, I've got a suspicion that the real winner may end up being Searing Flames.

In a similar vein, Icy Veins also now does respectable AoE on a quick recharge. (Sorry for the pun.)

Yeah, this is true. New HM armor levels are often even lower than previous NM armor levels used to be. Something like 4x SF 1x IV 1x ToF 1x healer is the new steamroll build. The DoA SCers QQing about rit nerfs will get over it when they see SF hitting for something like 170 damage after EBSoH and lightbringer.

Ensign · Jan 07, 2012, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.

That's...actually a really good idea. I basically blew off MoM for PvE because on a player, 3 PvE skills + GLE + MoM makes it really hard to make use of the MoM. But on a hero, where none of that matters, hell, it has potential.

It's just a question of how much room you have for non-elites after fixing your energy and stapling Fall Back to your bar...

xDusT II · Jan 07, 2012, 07:37 AM // 07:37

for a direct damage replacement hero, i'm thinking dual attunements, glyph of elemental power and rodgorts, fireball + some other fire direct damage spells (liquid flame, meteor, glyph sac met shower, maybe even lava arrows at the high spec). shuold be able to still spec for fall back.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 07:51 AM // 07:51

@Ensign - lucky you, because I'm crying

/wrist

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

5. About Invoke+Chain. It's a definite kick in the balls, but I'm not sure it's the kick in the balls with a flaming steel-toed boot studded with used hypodermic needles that some people seem to think it is. As I understand it, the point of Invoke+Chain was to run one or two Command skills while doing decent damage. I can't help but think that a lot of things are going to compare to the old Invoke+Chain damage-wise under the new hp/AL system. Since it sounds like Chain is still usable as long as it's the only exhaustion spell, why not use MoM to run something like Rodgort's+Chain and spec 12 Command? You could even throw in crazy stuff like Deep Freeze or wards. Might also add Fireball in addition to or instead of Chain.

What spells are you going to put there, other than Rodgort's + Chain? We can make a list:

Fireball
Liquid Flame
Rodgort's Invocation
Chain Lightning
Meteor
?

Aside from Chain Lightning, all these spells are in Fire Magic, whereupon you might as well run 16 Fire with Elemental Attunement, fixing your energy problems along with it + dealing more damage too.

I don't like the idea. MoM in PvP, perhaps, but I'm not seeing much potential in PvE.

EDIT: Basically what xDust said. The only problem with that is, Fire is ineffective in many areas of the game (viz. Destroyers), so they're not general-purpose heroes at best.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Jeydra I thought you ran AP + Chain Lightning in PVE, so why is a slight nerf to invoke and chain such a huge loss to you?

Regarding speed runs, mes nec and rit hero teams were always faster than invoke ellys, it may be a sad truth for many to accept, but it always was the case.

Elly heroes are still valid, and to me far more valid now with the skill update. I saw someone else above mentioning using fire and earth AoEs which was not working well for them .... Where was their snares? If you simply add a Shatterstone, Ice Spikes and Deep Freeze elly to your group, AoEs will suddenly become incredibly effective in HM.

Jeydra · Jan 07, 2012, 08:23 AM // 08:23

Because I ran hero Invoke Eles, obviously. The hit to Chain Lightning did not affect the AP Air template, which is as powerful as ever.

And no, Mes Nec Rit hero teams were NOT faster than Invoke Eles. I know, because I hold the records. Get your facts right.

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Simply drop either invoke and chain on your heroes then, add something else in its place and lose maybe 5-10 minutes to your speed runs, big deal!

And what record speed clear time do you hold with invoke / chain lightning heroes? Id like to see.

FYI Ive never once stated that invoke sucks in PVE, Ive stated that neither you nor anyone else would notice anything different with alternative builds on your heroes. I also never claimed that my hero build is 'the best hero build' like you annoyingly keep thinking that you and your builds are, it was nothing more than a quick <5 min test of the new skills. I have no reason to prove anything to you, my legenadry vanq is already done without requiring any elemental damage on my team.

You actually quoted me having said that Invoke is good, but concluded that I said it sucks, I dont see how you managed to assume that based on anything I have said.

For hgh end PVE, I would still use exactly 0 ellys, and myself as an Emo prot, I never claimed the build that I posted was for high end. If youre high end PVE hero team only used a single invoke elly, then this was nowhere near the bread and butter of your group - You will have no problems at all adapting to the nerf.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 08:54 AM // 08:54

I like the ideas flying around on this thread but from testing it out Searing Flames + Cracked Armor is king king now. Starburst has amazing potential to but I have not tested it out yet.

For Starburst I am thinking of E/Me with Armor of Earth, Stone Striker and Mantra of Earth. Don't forget the +15 earth insignia and Cracked Armor

@Jeydra, Stop showing off. Your record time had almost no competition because the prize was crappy.

Swingline · Jan 07, 2012, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

searing flames doesnt work on destroyers

Switch to another fire magic elite with this

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

Switch to another fire magic elite with this

I always knew about that, but my nooby brain told me to run UG + Churning Earth instead, and I filled the HM EOTN mission book several times with ease well before we had 7 heroes.

I thought that if the winter spirit died, the whole team would be screwed and chose not to rely on it. I actually also used a Mirror of Ice hero elly too against destroyers, but you know that no one used to use MOI or Water magic in PVE unless they are noobs, Invoke and Chain lightning is the only thing that apparantly worked.

I'll try out some WoC mobs later today. Ive never done WoC before so it will be new to me.

Kaida the Heartless · Jan 07, 2012, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Nine pages and Searing Flames has been mentioned approximately 5 times. I figured people would be back on it a bit quicker (then again, I've already shown affinity for that skill previously).

Jeydra and Ensign are spot on. For everything (I didn't expect much less, tbh).

The Invoke/Chain changes suck, even though I never really slotted any. I dislike that the option has largely been removed. I'd like to slot Glimmering Mark in place, but it's got that icky, icky clause tacked onto the end of it.

I think the non-elite changes will finally slide the Ele into a solid position in (Hero) parties. I'd like a class I can go to when I want to sacrifice Utility in favor of raw damage.

Fluffy Kittens · Jan 07, 2012, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Because I ran hero Invoke Eles, obviously. The hit to Chain Lightning did not affect the AP Air template, which is as powerful as ever.

And no, Mes Nec Rit hero teams were NOT faster than Invoke Eles. I know, because I hold the records. Get your facts right.

For me, mes nec and rit heroes were ALWAYS faster than invoke eles. I tried both in lots of places and invokes never seemed as efficient as mes nec rit.
That's a fact sir

bhavv · Jan 07, 2012, 10:24 AM // 10:24

AP was the most ridiculous way I've ever seen ellys played. You devote a whole skill bar to just 2 elementalist skills (chain lightning and lightning orb), only actually use chain lightning, and claim that this is the best 'elementalist' skill bar when it uses just two offensive elly skills and relies on several PVE skills plus an assassin elite.

If its so good, then give your elly heroes AP + Chain Lightning instead of Invoke + Chain, and thats your minor invoke nerf sorted out.

I dont subscribe to this method of logic. Compare elementalist options now with with elly elites and skills to the same thing before, they are a huge improvement to having only two options as a player elly - ER or AP, or for heroes only having Invoke as an option.